I know we don't know much about dungeons in GW2, other than the fact that they are in the game. It was mentioned that the mansion in Beetletun has a dungeon in it. I made this thread to discuss what you would like to see from the dungeons in GW2.
Personally I would like to see multilevel dungeons with a randomized map so that each playthrough is not exactly the same. I think it would add a lot of replay value to each dungeon if the map changes every time. Failing that dungeons with multiple paths to the end would also be nice.
I would also like to see some non-enemy obstacles in the dungeons. Things like traps or locked doors to which you need to find the keys. That is one aspect I liked about dungeons in Eotn and would like to see it again in GW2.
What would you like to see in the dungeons of GW2?|||Dungeons and elite areas: have ways to do a bit at a time, preferably not in sequential order. Slavers was good, except I think there`s no need to keep the last boss last... instead I`d have the end chest open-able only for those people who did all bosses, so you don`t have to pass just because you didn`t do X or Y boss first.|||I would like to see dungeons that aren't dungeons.
For example, I'm hoping the Beetletun Mansion is of this kind.
In other words, I want a place where I can test my mettle and teamwork fighting through traps, enemies, events and epic bosses while skimming through some general treasure until you obtain your final reward. But these places don't necessary need to have the whole dark, underground and claustraphobic feeling that dungeons usually have.
Torchlight is a nice example. Its dungeon levels vary in theme while you progress, even though you're still underground.
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Besides the theme, I also want to see traps (either mechanical like mines or poison jets or monster ambushes), bonus areas that give you an advantage (treasure chests, buffs, healing and ressurecting your teamates or even revealing the boss's weakness).
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I also want to see puzzles. It's always a pleasure playing a Zelda game because of its dungeons and clever puzzles (having great bosses also helps). Make it better by having some puzzles requiring cooperation. Don't make them require the full team, since having less party members should be a valid way to increase the challenge yourself, but having that option is always nice.
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I don't want to see randomized dungeons.
Okay, to be fair, it would be okay to have 1 randomized dungeon. The problem with randomized dungeons (and the reason why Torchlight ended up getting boring) is that you can't really make unique content, (for example, the Bettletun Mansion's party crashing scenario) or unique bosses. I prefer playing through unique content then through a re-skinned dungeon of the usual monster-bashing that ends up in a boss-skill-smasher without any feel of epicness.|||Quote:
Okay, to be fair, it would be okay to have 1 randomized dungeon. The problem with randomized dungeons is that you can't really make unique content, or unique bosses.
Nonsense.
I expect them to make dungeons in a DII fashion, which includes random layouts. However I also expect them to make 'unique content'* like the party crashing mansion in Beetletun. That's simply the start which is scripted, planned and designed. Why not have a randomized descent toward the final Beetletun Mansion boss? Why not have other missions have sections (beginning, mid or end) with that heavy level of design, like the Beetletun partycrashing? Why not have them have some kind of randomization as well? Randomization of content is massively important in preventing PvE gimmicks.
*why isn't randomized content unique? It's probably 'more unique' as oxymoronic as that sounds, since the experience is by definition repeated less often. But tangential linguistics discussion so ok whatever.|||Quote:
Nonsense.
I expect them to make dungeons in a DII fashion, which includes random layouts. However I also expect them to make 'unique content'* like the party crashing mansion in Beetletun. That's simply the start which is scripted, planned and designed.
See, and here is the problem.
It's not just the start that is scripted.
The Party Crashing is nothing more then an excuse for a theme.
It's the specific location of puzzles and traps, that take into account the floor layout and theme that a random generator, by today's standards, can't really accomplish.
To use a great example, look at Zelda dungeons (yes, I keep talking about Zelda, because those are dungeons done good, everyone bear with me).
Do you really beleive a randomized system would work on any part (start, middle, end) of any dungeon? Of course not. The puzzles sometimes take into account the whole dungeon map, sometimes entires floors. A random generator can't think ahead like this, at least, not for now.
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Why not have a randomized descent toward the final Beetletun Mansion boss? Why not have other missions have sections (beginning, mid or end) with that heavy level of design, like the Beetletun partycrashing? Why not have them have some kind of randomization as well? Randomization of content is massively important in preventing PvE gimmicks.
Look at Torchlight.
Did you find those dungeons fun after the 10th time you entered them? I didn't. You were still running from Point A to Point B killing everything in your sight until the next floor.
As I explained above, the fun core of a good dungeon is in the way to effectively force you to think on how to advance. A generator cannot, I repeat, cannot create great puzzles, only mediocre ones at best. A generator is able to place ambushes and traps, but it cannot generate a highly scripted chase scene that leads you into a trap which ends up being part of a multi-floor puzzle. A generator cannot create unique and interesting boss fights "on the fly" either. It can grab a pre-existing model, slap him some stat upgrades and call him a boss, but we all know how that turned out in GW1.
It can, however, place these pre-created scripts at random in each dungeon playthrough, but that ends up not solving anything.
You're still going to have people create the best strategies on how to tackle these randomly placed events. You'll just have to factor in the possibility of that particualr event not showing up, which is not a problem.
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*why isn't randomized content unique? It's probably 'more unique' as oxymoronic as that sounds, since the experience is by definition repeated less often. But tangential linguistics discussion so ok whatever.
My bad here. When I mean't unique, I mean't original content that gives you enjoyement. In leet speak, epic stuff.|||Theres no challenge in randomised content
or you get a set of enemies that suddenly perma wipe your team because of the way the game spawned them
not to mention that people like a ballpark idea of how long its going to take to get from the start to finish of something
a randomised dungeon could be anything|||I wouldn't like randomized dungeons.
Partly because I don't think the result would look believable - I thought about Diablo and how all those levels looked just like that - randomly thrown together, making no sense.
But also because I like knowing what to expect from a dungeon where I went before. Or read about, of course.
OTOH, I wouldn't like the same dungeon template copied several times. That's just as bad.
Of course, a randomized dungeon could be introduced with a good story explanation. But it should be an exception.|||Quote:
I would like to see dungeons that aren't dungeons.
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Dungeons and elite areas: have ways to do a bit at a time, preferably not in sequential order.
Varying dungeon themes are a plus I think, and a way to pause a dungeon run and resume it later would also be very helpful.
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I also want to see puzzles. It's always a pleasure playing a Zelda game because of its dungeons and clever puzzles (having great bosses also helps). Make it better by having some puzzles requiring cooperation. Don't make them require the full team, since having less party members should be a valid way to increase the challenge yourself, but having that option is always nice.
I'm also a fan of the idea of putting in puzzles in the dungeons. Though perhaps you may have to make the puzzles optional to complete because otherwise some people may be unable to solve the dungeon because of the puzzles. Having the puzzles be optional but having them offer increased rewards from the dungeon would allow everyone to get the final reward but reward those who did go out of their way to solve the puzzles.
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As I explained above, the fun core of a good dungeon is in the way to effectively force you to think on how to advance. A generator cannot, I repeat, cannot create great puzzles, only mediocre ones at best. A generator is able to place ambushes and traps, but it cannot generate a highly scripted chase scene that leads you into a trap which ends up being part of a multi-floor puzzle. A generator cannot create unique and interesting boss fights "on the fly" either. It can grab a pre-existing model, slap him some stat upgrades and call him a boss, but we all know how that turned out in GW1.
I agree that generating a dungeon completely at random generally does not create an interesting and unique dungeon. Therefore I propose a dungeon having some unique rooms that do not change, while randomizing some of the content to add replay value. If ANet creates many different rooms, each with their own enemies, traps and puzzles you can make each dungeon unique but also interesting on every playthrough. Zelda dungeons are truly unique but they lose replay value very quickly since they are always the same every time you play.
Imagine the final dungeon of Ocarina of Time (the one with the main room leading to all the side rooms you had to complete in order to climb to the boss) with randomized content. The main room and the objectives at the end of each of the side rooms are still there, but now the path to those objectives changes. The path to the side fire objective could be the room filled with fire where you need to collect all the silver rupees (as it is now) or it could be a torch lighting puzzle or it could be a timed room where you need to kill enemies before the ceiling falls or something else entirely. The same would be true for all of the other side objectives.
The overall dungeon layout and the central objective would remain unique but the path to the objective would change each time, offering much better replay value.
However if random content still does not appeal would multiple set layouts of the dungeon be better in your opinion? That way if you play through the dungeon once you get floor 1A, and if you play a second time you get floor 1B. That way unique content can be created that also has replay value. It might take longer to create a bunch of entirely new unique floors though.|||I would like to see (and I am sure it will be) dungeons which do not borrow from other dungeons .
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I would not mind seeing...
-A few dungeons set up with the event system where your choices can change the outcome of a dungeon.
-Some start and go straight through until the end dungeons.
-To have some random NPCs in some dungeons that can start further new personal story lines for you back "home".|||Quote:
I would like to see (and I am sure it will be) dungeons which do not borrow from other dungeons.
Always a good thing and one of the main reasons I did not like some of the dungeons in EotN.
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-A few dungeons set up with the event system where your choices can change the outcome of a dungeon.
That would be a cool idea. But I don't think it will happen. I get the impression events are supposed to be public things anyone can join in at any one time so I doubt you would find them in an instanced dungeon area which you can only enter as a party. You never know though.
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